Mike Bruce 0:11
Hey, this is getting there with Mike and Amy and we are a travel podcast for the health minded nomads and entrepreneurs.

Amy Nubson 0:19
Talking to Caroline Moore’s, who is the founder of hard talk business coaching and provides executive coaching, teen sessions, change management consultation, keynote speaking and webinars. She has 29 years of experience in Germany, Belgium and Netherlands and here in the US. She has a master’s degree in psychology and education from universities from the United Kingdom and the Netherlands where she is from one of the most fascinating things about Carolyn, she commutes between Minnesota and Singapore. How crazy is that? Can’t wait to hear more about that. She loves to cook, entertain, read, hike. Travel Of course, obviously she’s going back and forth. And she loves spending time with her family of five. Say we’ll be talking about her work and change management and emotional intelligence when it telogen. When it comes to travel, I met Caroline at University of Minnesota, one of the classes I took about change management. Tell us how you got into traveling and living all over the country and working.

Carolien Moors 1:28
Yeah, well, thank you, Amy. This is an awesome topic for me to talk about. How did I get into traveling Gee, I’m the youngest of four and my parents who were partially Dutch but also had some German and Belgian blood in them. They’ve always loved to travel but the funny thing is Amy sometimes it was driving by car from the Netherlands all the way to Italy. In a small car, bringing all our Food and everything and then staying in Italy for weeks. And the reason why we had to bring all our food was because we were a middle or not middle class working class family. And we simply my parents simply couldn’t pay for the vacation otherwise, so that was a big trip. But then other times we drove like six miles to some woods with something that we decided was kind of a campground. And we took the whole tent with us and everything as if we were going to Italy and then we would be there for two days and that would be big travel and exciting as well. So I guess I guess that adventure and, and taking time with your family, regardless of money, regardless of distance, and how different it was, I guess. I was kind of born that way. So I’ve always thanked my parents for that. And then my dad has several siblings. And one of them was a big traveler. And so she would visit us twice a year, because she was still living in Germany and working as a nurse. And whenever she came back from big travels, and I mean really big travels, she’s visited, I believe, 80% of the countries in the world. And that’s quite a bit. She would come to us ever since I was really young and tell stories. And you know, it’s so exciting. And my imagination always run wild, of course, so I probably remember her vacations differently than she does.

Amy Nubson 3:37
Don’t we all?

Carolien Moors 3:39
Yeah.

Amy Nubson 3:41
Well, that I know. That’s a big dream of both me and Mike is to travel to all different countries and see it and you know, it’s one of the things here in the United States, you can’t just drive to another country very easily. You know, if you’re in the Northern Star, you get Canada you’re in the bottom you get Mexico

Carolien Moors 3:57
and let’s

Mike Bruce 3:58
be honest, going to Canada is not another Country. It’s just it’s just more more polite. That’s

Carolien Moors 4:06
Yeah.

Amy Nubson 4:09
Yeah, it’s a little bit of Europe sometimes. But yeah, it’s not like going to a completely different culture of being immersed. Right.

Carolien Moors 4:16
Right. No, and I will. Yeah, I realized that we’re so blessed in Europe. I don’t even know how many countries in Europe we visited anywhere between. I think it’s about 17 or 18. I don’t know. But it’s, it’s so easy. So I was born in the south of the Netherlands and within 30 minutes, we were in Germany within 30 minutes. We were in Belgium. And from there you can go anywhere else. Right. So it’s so easy if you made the time and if you’re creative, of course, because like I said, we didn’t have a lot of money to travel. We never flew. But you have to you have to want it and you have to be creative. Yes.

Amy Nubson 4:57
You know, and then I know you have a family of three to give three children. How do you How did you manage your family and business while you were in other countries for education or or work?

Carolien Moors 5:11
Mm hmm. Yeah. So I’ve always wanted to be flexible and put my family first. I hope that when they look back at their younger years that they think the same as I like to think they do. But you know, it’s, it’s, it’s being ready to be surprised is getting ready for things to go differently than you thought. So it requires not just curiosity to travel, whether it’s for work or education, work kids, but also creativity. So, you know, and and much of it is and I like to draw from from cognitive psychology here, as well as some emotional intelligence, much of it is How you yourself frame the experience or the hurdle or a challenge that is right in front of you, because there will be right? how you frame it for yourself, but also how you frame it for your kids. So I’ll give you one example one time we were traveling through the US Actually, that’s when we had first Nosek the second time moved here to the US, and this time with all three of our children. And we were traveling through California through most many of the parks and deserts. And so our son who was then let’s see, I think he was eight. He says, at some point money, where are we seeing tonight? And I looked at him and I said, Honey, that’s such an excellent question we’re seeing in some hotel, and he said, Okay, cool. So we have it all arranged and under control. And I said, Yes, we have it all on the control. And luckily, he didn’t ask what hotel because we didn’t have a clue because our plans have kind of been a little different or reality. was was a little different than our plan. But, you know, he was totally fine. And if he would have asked me what hotel I would have said, Well, I think it’s going to be one that we like enough, but it’s not going to be the nicest maybe and probably not going to be the worst. So, you know, you can always frame and I think portray some confidence. Of course, we you know, I have to insert here that we’ve been very fortunate to have very flexible creative kits. I like to think that that’s part gene. And part two, we waste them but they will also always healthy. So it’s, it’s very different when you have limitations, either yourself or your children. Right. So there are quite a few things that are realized that we as a family and I myself have been very fortunate to to, to be able to travel. Yeah,

Mike Bruce 7:58
yeah. And it’s, it’s I like that you mentioned The limitations thing, because we just we as humans, we like to make an excuse when something scares us. Instead of leaning into it, we are conditioned to make an excuse. And my, my uncle was, was blessed enough to go on a trip to Israel with a whole group of people that, that were all in wheelchairs and things and they had to invite somebody else to go with them in order to have an aid to help out and it was a co worker of his who’s always wanted to go. And that’s, I mean, that’s a guy that had every reason not to, and he made it work.

Carolien Moors 8:33
Oh, I love that story. Isn’t that amazing? so inspiring, right? Yeah. Yeah. And and since you’re adding that maybe one thing that has helped me all through my life I’ve always volunteered hands on and started when I was really young, with children, young adults with disabilities, physical and mental disabilities. And, you know, we will never know what role Which experience please in in how we look at life and how we deal with life with lives beauty and life’s beast. But that probably plays into it. Because I’ve always been very aware of the fact that I’m so fortunate and if I can handle a surprise, being mentally and physically healthy, well mentally I leave that up to others but physically healthy. Right, right. So so no traveling is also a mindset, right?

Mike Bruce 9:33
Yeah, completely.

Amy Nubson 9:34
Yeah, I know. I know. A lot of people once they have children, they’re like, oh, no more travel for me. They write it off like they can.

Carolien Moors 9:43
Yeah. I like you. Look that would you didn’t Amy right.

Amy Nubson 9:47
Well, I don’t have children. But I don’t think it would have stopped me because I think there’s so much for them to learn and experience. Yes. When you travel and I think I look at some of the young people like my friends who are taking their children, like one of them just took their daughter to Italy was like seven or eight. I’m like what any experience she gets to learn at a young age. overcoming those fears of that unknown, and just trusting it. Yeah,

Carolien Moors 10:15
yes, yes. Well, I’m done. If you do this from a very early age, it becomes almost natural. It’s just what you do. I remember one of our daughters, when we were talking about traveling, and and how fortunate in Europe we are that are so many extremely different countries and cultures so close to each other. And then at some point, someone had one of her friends had asked her something and she said, Well, it’s just what you do. That’s, that’s just what you do. You pick up you know, you’re back. You’re back. You’re back. And she at that point, told a story that when they were two, so we have twin daughters when they were two, and we were had moved from Florida to Minnesota they were born in Florida. And at some point, I thought they’re acting so weird lately. They’re sitting on the stairs and holding this little bag with books and stuffed animals crammed into them. And then when I asked them, so May I ask what you girls are doing? And they looked at me completely surprised by the question like, Don’t you know? And they said, we’re playing airport, mommy. Oh, wow. Yeah, I guess we dragged them the first time when they were nine weeks old, which is really weird when you have twins because they look like they. They are extremely newborn. But I thought yeah, that’s that’s what they know. That’s what they like. And, you know, I think it just comes down to like you said, Amy, starting early. I have friends who said, Well, I’ll start going back to restaurants when the kids are older. And I always used to say don’t do that. Start now. Be prepared that you have to walk out if one of them or your your first and one and only starts crying and you cannot comfort them or be prepared to abort the plan or to adapt the plan. But lightly, you don’t even have to do that. So I think it starts with very small things.

Amy Nubson 12:21
Yeah, I agree. Like I have relatives in Norway, and I watched the pictures of them with their children and watching their videos. And they’re like, I think at age of like six months old, they had like backpack harnesses. And they’re hiking up in the mountains with the kids. And I’m like, we don’t do that here. But he’s not my ear does not do. Like, no, no, that’s too much work. So it’s really a different kind of mentality when you engage with your children when it comes to like adventure or activities that are traveling around or so I think it’s awesome that you’re your kids get a whole different perspective. of the world even before they’re out of high school.

Mike Bruce 13:04
Yes. How do you? And you can answer this both for you, we kind of already answered this for your children because it would be the same, the same answer, I think, but how do you adapt to the different cultures and the language barriers when you do decide to either visit a new country or I know you’ve moved and lived a lot of places? So when you’re actually living in a new country, what is what is your normal route for, for figuring out how to become part of that culture?

Carolien Moors 13:31
Hmm, depends, of course a little bit on how different the culture is from our own. We are blessed in the Netherlands with an education system where we have to learn two languages other than our own, which is Dutch Of course. So but that only gets you to a certain number of countries of course, but I’m happy that I had to learn how to speak German and English and a little bit of French Then I added voluntarily some Italian and some Spanish but that doesn’t get me very far. But you know, I look at usually when we travel so we’ve taken them to places where we do speak the language where we totally don’t where we are familiar with the culture where we are absolutely not. I look at how many things will be really different out of our comfort zone. And I translate that into how many routines do I want to take with me on my trip and then that sounds a little weird because you cannot pack a routine, but in my preparation, especially with young children, but even for myself, I think of routines that provide you know that security blanket things you know, as this is certain breakfast that you want to have or a certain activity that you want to do. So one thing that is really easy with children but also for myself, and which has always been fun and very soothing. And reassuring for us is always ending the day when our kids were young, probably until early teens, that we were reading a book together. So part of a book, of course, not a whole book before they went to bed. And that is something that you can do anywhere is great. Take a book or a magazine with you these days, we have, of course, e reader. So it’s even easier now than it was back then.

And then, you know, a little security blanket one or two toys with kids.

You know, of course, we do a lot of reading or we I should say, it’s usually me because my husband has an extremely busy executive job. And the kids usually wouldn’t prepare themselves other than get really excited. But I would do quite a bit of reading, I would show some pictures. And I would I would look on sites, blogger sites and people who have traveled there and see you know what What is the nature and the feel of their experiences? And then after that, I totally let it go because ours may be extremely different, right? So I think flexibility and managing expectations, okay, I have prepared in many different ways with young children, I always knew where the closest hospital was, etc. There are just a couple of things that you want to prepare and feel good about. And then I let go and I welcomed a surprise and I’m ready to adventure or to work somewhere, right?

Mike Bruce 16:36
Yeah. So So kind of what you’re saying there is, you definitely you build some structure in there just based on on just a couple small things and then you do a little bit of prep work ahead of time, right. And, and the biggest part is, like you said, just with the kids, you’re reframing the trip for not only them but also yourself reframing the mindset. That could be negative but you’re reframing it to positive for yourself. To get over any fears or trepidation, yes,

Carolien Moors 17:03
yes, yes. Exactly. Hmm.

Unknown Speaker 17:07
And speaking of working overseas, like right now you are currently in Singapore. What’s that? Like? Like? How did you start commuting back and forth between Minnesota and Singapore? That’s a very interesting community.

Mike Bruce 17:23
That is a yes.

Carolien Moors 17:27
Yeah, I think we may have one of the longest commute.

Unknown Speaker 17:32
It’s about 30 hours from door to door. And, you know, we’re both in our mid 50s. So we still think we deal with it extremely well. relatively little jet lag, and we never have much jet lag problems, but adapt to I think is partially mindset, just just accepting that you’ll be tired and you’ll wake up in the morning and feeling really hungry because wherever you came from it’s dinnertime and you didn’t have dinner because just what you know all those weird little things and just laugh about them and just you know just accept them do not fight them because Will you know, whatever we either deny or fight usually gets bigger but acceptance is right there in the middle where it’s there, but you allow it to be there. What is it like? I think it’s awesome because one of the things that I really like Mike and Amy about traveling and that I feel so blessed around is being out of my comfort zone in an area that really excites me so new smells new sounds news sites.

Carolien Moors 18:47
You know, I’m sure you know that Singapore is an island city state it’s it’s

off of Saddam, Southern Malaysia. And it’s it’s small, I believe the US is 15 times bigger. 15,000 times not 15, of course, 50,000 times bigger. So it’s small, and it’s culturally extremely diverse, mostly Asian, diverse, of course 30% of the population are foreigners, and then define foreigners. But there are so many different cultures here. It’s a vibrant city, it’s alive. It’s authentic. It’s also a little strange if I think of some of the laws here. So moving around here is very different. I would not j walk as easily here as I would anywhere, not anywhere else in the world, but for example, in the US in in most places. I cannot choose to come here you cannot even import gum into the country. how great the law if you litter and you’re caught and Many of the police officers are undercover you wouldn’t recognize them, you can get huge fines. So laws, many laws here are very strict, you don’t see them apply Normally, you don’t feel those restrictions, but you do definitely want to be aware of them. So it kind of like that going back and forth between a lot of liberties and for example, press freedom scores really low here in Singapore, which you wouldn’t immediately again notice. And that’s, of course, a very big difference with the US. And whenever differences are so huge, it makes me realize time and again, what I appreciate what values I hold to be true, and not just how fortunate we are but also how much work does still is to do to try and, and and connect with each other not necessarily changed Singapore or any other country for that matter into a different country but to connect into Trying understand and to learn about history, why things are so different here than then for example, in the middle and sort of us. And working wise, you know, the biggest challenge working here is the hour difference the time difference. So it was 13 hours until Minnesota went back to winter time. I was 14 hours. So we have really late night meetings, going up to midnight or one in the morning with clients, both my husband and I with clients in the US, as well as early morning meetings. And then when it’s daytime here, my husband gets to go to his office here because he has an office here as well as in the US. And I get to do all kinds of prep work and hiking and all kinds of other good stuff. Yeah, it’s an adjustment. It’s a totally different life. That’s

right.

Mike Bruce 21:52
Yeah. So with the with the jet lag, do you do anything in particular to kind of prep your body, for the for inflammation and the different things that happen because I know on my end, I, I’m a health coach. So I come at this whole podcast from the health side of things. And Amy, it loves to travel and still work while she travels. So I’m always interested in how somebody kind of hacks that jet lag issue or, or if like you said, you just laugh it off, which is also really amazing.

Unknown Speaker 22:22
Mm hmm. Yeah, I have only one practice and one advice, but that may not work for others, of course. So I’m sure there are quite a few things that you can do to prep your body. I never looked into it. Also, because we don’t really suffer that much from our jetlag. And if we wake up in the middle of a night, I just, you know, do a couple of deep breathing exercises and I just put her literally put a smile on my face and appreciate that I’m safely where I am, wherever that is, you know, it’s it’s much of it is what you What kind of self talk that you do the narrative that you have? Yeah, I don’t get upset about Oh, I’m awake now and hope I can fall asleep I, I don’t have those kind of thoughts. But the only thing that really we have always done is to not take a nap when you feel tired. So to stick with the, with the new time zone, so we traveled back from the US to the Netherlands, when our kids were when our girls were young, because our son was born when we moved back to the Netherlands before we then returned to the US but we we would usually arrive at six in the morning flying from Minneapolis back to Amsterdam. So that’s very unfortunate because usually we hadn’t slept much on the plane, but we kept active we kept eating well we usually did quite a bit of walking but it was in a city or a nature, so to speak. The body active. And then it was totally okay to go to bed a little earlier. But I always try to keep not just ourselves but also our children awake so that they immediately get into the new time zone because obviously, your body temperature and your bodily needs are still in the old time zone, right? And if you allow a nap or a weird time to eat a full meal to take over, then you will remain longer in that old time zone. So we we always immediately went with whatever was happening in the new time zone.

Mike Bruce 24:39
Yeah, yeah, that’s one of my biggest tips for everyone is always to hold off on on a meal and on sleeping until the actual you know, your next meal in the new time zone and sleeping when the new time zone has that So yeah, that’s that’s really cool. And you just intuitively do that, huh?

Carolien Moors 24:56
Yeah. Oh, so I’m happy to learn that that is healthy that we didn’t Whoo and not kitsis Yeah,

Mike Bruce 25:00
no, no, that’s terrific. That’s a great way to do it.

Carolien Moors 25:04
Yeah. suggestions do you have Mike, do you have certain things you do for

Mike Bruce 25:10
you. So aside from the two that you mentioned, my to my other, I’ll say three big ones would be actually to, if you if you’re used to like a higher fat diet and lower carbohydrate, which is very opposite of the American diet, then you can easily fast while you fly. And fasting helps to reduce your inflammation. And then it gives you the ability to actually be hungry when your next meal comes up. So that really helps reset the rhythm. touching the ground with your bare feet or your hands, you know, for a good 20 minutes when you first get to the new location. That also helps because there’s a rhythm and a frequency in the earth that your body picks up on. And each location of the Earth has literally like if it’s 4pm in Singapore 4pm in Minnesota is going to have the same type of frequency so your body can pick up on that and then The third thing is first thing in the morning. Get outside in the sunlight if possible, if not stand behind a window in the warmth and let the sunlight hit as much skin as you can let it hit your eyeballs and really that that’s the another big trigger for your circadian rhythm. So, so yeah, you’re already crushing it really well, so

Carolien Moors 26:19
didn’t know what he said. I really appreciate those. Thank you.

Mike Bruce 26:23
Yeah, no problem.

Unknown Speaker 26:24
I know I always learned a lot from Mike when it comes to like, a natural not the best thing about those tips are free.

Mike Bruce 26:32
I have a lot of expensive ones too. But those are.

Carolien Moors 26:37
That’s pretty you can keep those to yourself.

Mike Bruce 26:45
So, Amy, what’s the next thing I wanted to talk about with her and we’ve been touching on this the whole time. But really fear of travel. Because as a business coach, you deal a lot with just fear of everything right? I mean, people, people have to overcome all of this. You’re you’re a parent, you’ve dealt with fear of children. I’m sure you’ve dealt with fear in your own way, even though you were blessed with parents who love to travel. Someone like me, I, my parents, my mom liked to travel. My dad was scared to death of travel, and that he passed that on to me big time. And it was so fun. Looking back on the first big trip that I figured out, hey, this is all in my head. I can overcome this. And it was such a game changer. What would be your biggest ways to overcome fear of travel for people?

Carolien Moors 27:32
While you’re asking a psychologist? How long do you have right?

Mike Bruce 27:39
blown away, I only gave you three tips for jetlag.

Unknown Speaker 27:46
Yeah, the way that I like to approach any kind of fear and you already mentioned this is from a cognitive psychology perspective first and then from a cash flow. Psychology perspective and the Gestalt psychology is more focused around everything to do with emotional intelligence and awareness in the moment. So, so experiencing feeling things in the moment, but I’ll explain myself a little more so with cognitive psychology, a fear of travel. Well, first of all, for whom and to to what purpose? Does someone want to overcome that fear? I have. How do you say that in law family members, so not my own siblings, but who some don’t necessarily like to travel because of the fear of flying, and it doesn’t seem to burden them at all, or at least not anymore. It doesn’t seem to limit the joy in their lives. So I you know, I generally tell people if you have a fear and you really want to overcome them for your awesome we’re in business, but I first like to hear from you You know, what are you willing to do and to invest and where to, because sometimes people fear something that they think society looks down on and that they should overcome, whereas they themselves are not fooling themselves when they say, you know, I live a full happy life and I’m actually fine like this. But thinking of people who do want to overcome their fear of travel with cognitive psychology, I usually start with with asking some questions around the level of realistic ness and I know that’s not a word, but to what extent is the fear real? And to what extent is it imagined? So? And that’s a strange question. Of course, I usually ask for experiences so the things that people fear about traveling, what is what is their experience with it has this happened to them and then how will How did they adjust to it, even if they didn’t, even if they feel they feel they at least have a true experience. Many times people have imagined fears, you and I fear things that haven’t happened. But that could happen and which would probably get us too much out of our comfort zone or really hit on some some important structure in our life or some important value in our life. So I always like to get a better sense of that. And for that, I use a method which is called rational effectiveness training. But it’s by an American psychologist and social worker Albert Ellis, who, who has helped so many people determine which of their fears are mainly based on thoughts and you alluded to this Mike, you know, it’s in your head, which doesn’t mean it’s not serious, which doesn’t mean That it can totally debilitate you because it can. So it’s not a matter of judging whether someone’s fear is real or imagined and then condemning that, let alone laughing it off, right? But it’s more a matter of getting out of your head and looking at what is really happening, what is really going on. So finding proof for your fears and finding percentages, how likely is it that that is actually going to happen and even if it were to happen, what could be your approach what could be your emergency exit ABC and D. So, that that is one way I approach it, but then also and we spoke to this in a slightly different context, drawing from Gestalt psychology and emotional intelligence, allowing things to be very different and to be maybe uncomfortable or unknown. Surprising, painful, shocking, not aligned with your values and trusting that you will find a way to respond that you will find a way to accept it maybe not accept the different approach or value or way of living, but accept that there was a difference and appreciating that difference knowing that you don’t have to live like that or knowing that you don’t have to live in a country with certain laws.

Mike Bruce 32:28
Isn’t that isn’t that amazing? overcoming that belief that you know, your value, the thing that you the idea that you hold a certain belief for one of the biggest ways to get over that is to actually travel and see other ideas. And, and all too often, the fear of other cultures and other countries could be fixed if you want to say cured by seeing the other countries and seeing just how amazing those people are. And though though they believe different things have different different values and politics and all these different things. Just seeing those different cultures can can totally correct that thought in your head and help you get on the right path of changing that mindset.

Unknown Speaker 33:11
Yeah, and the beauty today of the Airbnb is and the different ways of like traveling abroad. Oh, yeah. It’s so wonderful because you kind of get to be more immersed in the culture versus like a hotel. Because I remember that was the best thing for me when I went over to visit extended family in Norway is I got to stay in their homes, eat their food, and it was amazing how close it was to my grandmother’s food. And I felt so at home, and I didn’t expect that. But it was such an amazing trip. I would never wanted to be at a hotel. And away from that kind of feeling. Yeah,

Mike Bruce 33:49
yeah, definitely.

Carolien Moors 33:50
Yeah, I almost forgot that we had a time where Airbnb didn’t exist because they use it all the time. Yes, yeah.

Yeah. One other thing that we do and we’ve always done that with our kids I don’t even know whether they remember or realize that is but when we arrived in a very different culture from our own so for example, when we took them to Malaysia when they were five, eight and eight and it was relatively adventurous so it wasn’t under resorts or anything because my husband and I was so ready to travel Asia again the way we used to. And so and Malaysia is safe as in that you’re always close to some hospital or relatively close and healthcare is was relatively good, etc. But one thing that we often do is the first day just sit in a park or one of these Yes, I know the English words town squares and just sit and enjoy the sunshine never knew it was that important, ya know, I do. But also just just enjoy the people. Just observe A lot of adjusting to different cultures and a lot of success in traveling is also observing and being mindful. And so observing people walk by and how they greet each other and just looking without staring of course but just looking out people go about their lives in a town square or in a park or somewhere really helps me ground it’s it’s it’s of course very similar than putting your bare feet and hands on the ground but it’s more of a mental type of grounding probably. And I yeah, I think I always put a smile on my face I not quite a lot I, I just want to appear friendly and open without bringing and of course we all bring our preconceived notions, we all bring our judgments and our values. And there was nothing wrong with that, but I try and be open receptive and show that I really appreciate that I am able to be in a certain place. Now remember when my husband and I first traveled to Vietnam, which was then or I have to think now I think it was in 96. We were traveling, we were first in Hong Kong and then traveling through Vietnam. And there were areas where people were relatively suspicious and guarded suspicious, maybe just one bit guarded. Yeah. And it didn’t always lead to success. But more often than not just nodding, smiling, walking slower, just showing in your nonverbal behavior. That almost that you want to make yourself a little smaller than you are. And I don’t mean this in a way to lose your confidence or anything but just being appreciative, humble and mindful. Even though we didn’t speak the language at all. It did. Turn people more receptive to us and more welcoming to us.

Mike Bruce 37:04
Yeah, I have a very similar experience in Honduras, I’ve been there for mission trips with my church and there, at least where we were at in the mountains, they are a very kind of beat down insecure culture, and especially around Americans. And I noticed that just the ability to just learn enough Spanish that you can say, Hello, God bless, good day, those sorts of things. And just smile when you walk by someone try to try your best to buy something at the local markets and fruits, meat, whatever you’re doing, and just smiling and and you know, being able to laugh when you make mistakes. And people went from very guarded like you said, to to have you know, by the time you’re done the conversation, they’re better, a little better than the next day you go back to buy some more tortillas or fruit, whatever. And they are all of a sudden, they see you and they smile. And that’s a big deal when you’re in a culture like Someone smiles back. So So yeah, a smile on your face. Don’t not a big creepy smile but but just enough, you know, it’s the the grateful that the the welcoming eyes if that makes sense.

Carolien Moors 38:15
Yeah, yeah. What a what a profound experience in Honduras and yeah Mike I agree buying local and being interested in not just the big resorts and whatever big there maybe if there even is anything with just submerging yourself in the local community to the extent that they appreciate it of course, that’s very helpful. Yeah, what an experience. So Honduras is still on my list.

Mike Bruce 38:44
Yeah, it’s worth it.

Amy Nubson 38:46
Yeah. I love what you were saying about the idea of the town square and just observing and then by observing you become part of that community or that in the environment. I love that idea because I never thought about But when you watch tourists sometimes you can you can almost point them out even in the US you couldn’t another city you’re like oh they’re not from here. But I’ve always just kind of decided to when I travel the state in the US here I try to just get relaxed and I try to be in a hurry or the matches are you know, I just like okay, this is you know our new normal today. And I I love that and you know, even on the subway in Boston, I found out the best way to just drive down the subways, put earbuds in just don’t plug them in because I like to be able to hear what’s going on around me and read a book and not once did I get bothered my sister did not follow that rule. And I swear every person bothered her the entire train ride and I’m like, just don’t look like a tourist.

Mike Bruce 39:54
One of the things I love doing, right, one of the things I love doing like you guys said that the call cultural centers the parks in the in the town town squares are just terrific. But what you’ll notice is when you’re in those areas how everyone dresses so if if I always I love wearing tank tops if it’s sunny out I just like to so some places you go if you’re in a tank top you feel really awkward because people are in long sleeve shirts not just not just t shirts but last name. So you one of the things I learned probably from Tim Ferriss or one of the one of the different travel guys is Yeah, just kind of look into how people dress before you go somewhere and see if it’s if it’s normal to wear flip flops or if you should always wear shoes those are big deal so I I’m fully okay with people looking at me funny though when I stand barefoot outside of an airport.

Carolien Moors 40:46
Well, you gotta do what you gotta do, right? Yeah.

Mike Bruce 40:48
Is there is there anything in particular I know we talked about adapting to the culture some but is there anything in particular that you always find yourself looking for before you go somewhere new like, like Like I said clothing or more certain terms and phrases that you like to learn ahead of time like I learned, I always learn the coffee lingo for each country before I go. So important, so important for traditional foods you know?

Unknown Speaker 41:17
You’re talking about no one in Singapore I would never known about the gum because I always have gotten on a plane to help me pop my ears never would have known that about.

Mike Bruce 41:26
That’s amazing. Yeah. So what are the things that you look for when you when you’re getting ready to go?

Unknown Speaker 41:32
Yeah, so you know, thanks to the internet, we can look up so many things. So I usually look into categories, important things to know regarding adjusting to a certain culture or country. And then the second thing is fun, interesting facts. Because I find in the fun and interesting facts you also learn not just fun things to share with the family that gets me even more excited than they already were about to travel. But I find some some good nuggets in there as well. And so the the prohibition of chewing gum was one of them that I found in the fun, interesting facts. But it’s kind of important. So the only thing that I’ve been realized was that you couldn’t even import it. So the first time we came here, I had an open package in my bag. Of course, I knew not to not to eat it. And I will never forget how the lady who was servicing our room was looking at the package that was laying carelessly on the table. So it got us into a very interesting conversation and hands and feet conversation. I didn’t speak molay still don’t and she spoke very little English, but we did have an interesting conversation and I reassured her by wrapping it in an envelope and tossing it

Unknown Speaker 42:59
Yeah, I always want to look at certain phrases especially. Thank you, you are so kind and I am sorry. So especially the Grateful phrases and the apology phrases, and then of course Good morning Good evening, you know those kind of things. Yeah, what else do we do?

Mike Bruce 43:21
And with the phrases to and and you’ve traveled a lot so you don’t and you also know multiple languages from being in your education but we as Americans were so scared to try these phrases. And again, I’ll say his name again Tim Ferriss. His his big thing when you’re learning a language is just talk like Tarzan, like, just, they’re just other cultures are just so happy that you’re trying to talk that they’ll jump right into English if they know it pretty quickly, even if they’re embarrassed to speak but, but I that always stuck with me like, Who cares what I sound like, I sound great to me. I think I have the greatest accent when I speak Spanish. I don’t So just talk like Yoda or talk like Tarzan, and you’ll get, you’ll get it right. So,

Unknown Speaker 44:05
and that is so true. Tim is so right, because it’s the effort that you’re putting into it not to perfection. So from the speaker point of view, we want to be good or even perfect, and we want to do it right. We don’t want to be embarrassed but from the recipient in that different country. Generally, not always, of course, but generally, or just will that you’re making the effort that you’re trying. So yes, I completely agree with that. Yes, yes.

Unknown Speaker 44:33
Well, I know one of the other things that you mentioned a what a little bit ago was the fear of the culture like what how people might judge them when traveling and I have experienced this because a year ago, I sold my house, I sold almost all my belongings and moved in Minneapolis. A very, very minimalist so I could travel and become more mobile. And I thought, This is great. I was so excited to tell family and friends and I was met with a lot of resistance and sometimes even anger about how dare you do this? And it surprised me and I was like, I’m not hurting anybody. Like, I don’t under you know, so that surprised me about the non traditional lifestyle that I wanted to choose for me. knavery wanted to choose for ourselves. And I wonder if that’s for some people because he talked about like, how do you do that? How do you how do you live somewhere for two, three months? I know on our bucket list going to Europe for 2021 is you know, for six months, five months. And people are you can’t do that. Why not?

Carolien Moors 45:46
Right. But But you know, Amy that that is so awesome to do.

Well, it requires many different things to do what you do, but one of them is this condition. Trust in

Unknown Speaker 46:03
I will make it I will more than make it and this will enrich me even if at times I feel completely

Carolien Moors 46:13
the opposite, right?

Yes, there’s some times where I’m like, What am I doing?

Unknown Speaker 46:19
Right? But you apparently have the capability to see the bigger lens as well, because maybe in the moment, the experience is unpleasant. And maybe that moment is longer than just an hour. Maybe it’s a couple of days, but you apparently trust that you will be able to make something good out of it. And you are clearly capable of seeing the bigger lens. Yeah, I think you know, whatever is really foreign to someone if they listen to you or to me or to Mike, the more different we think and act and believe the more It pushes some people away. It scares them even though you’re not asking them to do exactly the same. And I, you know, I, in many of my coaching and consultation sessions, I tell people, the biggest gift you can give yourself and everyone around you is to delete judgment. And to just be curious to just say, Hmm, now that’s interesting, rather than Huh, that’s weird. Why would you do that? Or Aren’t you thinking of your future? So I think judging is a really important skill that we have, because if we cannot judge what’s the bonato what makes sense considering you know, a business proposal or whatever it is or what what mode of transportation to take in a certain country. If we cannot judge decisions, quality wise and safety wise, etc, we would not have survived as a species but We have taken judgment to the worst levels for for many centuries, I think. So I think judging piece is something that both of you likely do very differently. But people around you may not right. And they may may label it and maybe uncomfortable with it. And me me try and push it away. And I’m glad that that doesn’t stop you, Amy.

Carolien Moors 48:28
I think sometimes I’m like, okay, we’ll do this more.

Mike Bruce 48:33
We’ve both dealt with that, like Amy said, with her family. I’ve dealt with that in the health field as well with my family, when it comes to me eating a certain way. Wow. Wow. I mean, that’s you’re dealing with someone’s core values there when you’re, when you say, I don’t eat that way anymore, because it hurts me. Then that’s an indictment on them eating that way that you used to eat and it’s not but I guess at first when you’re really zealous about you’re so excited about The changes you’ve seen you. Yeah, I’m speaking from my own experience. I definitely went overboard and and wouldn’t shut up for the longest time. No, never never. But I really I really loved your answer there, Caroline. Because I think I could ask you 150 different questions, and you could answer it all without one answer. And I think that is so cool. Just so many things throughout life between marriage where we’re going to break out in the 14 different podcasts we’re going to have you on for every episode. Know what

Carolien Moors 49:35
you asked for?

Unknown Speaker 49:39
Well, and that was one of the things I loved about your class because like we went, I went for change management. The biggest takeaway I got was be curious. Yes. And I was like, how simple and how life changing that can be is just to be curious. And just by exploring it Understanding it can completely change your point of view or get over your fears. And even now talking to you about Singapore, how amid ages and I can’t like an area of the world that little bit scares me to travel to because it’s so foreign to me the idea of not knowing their culture, not knowing the rules, the laws.

Amy Nubson 50:26
But everybody that goes to that side of the world loves it.

Yeah. And I’m like, now I just gotta get more curious and check it out.

And learn.

Unknown Speaker 50:36
And this maybe is overcome that fear and go.

Unknown Speaker 50:40
Yeah, yeah. No, you’re right. Oh, I’m so thrilled they need that curiosity still stands out for you. And and you know, there are so many different dimensions to curiosity. And as you may remember, I usually tell people withhold judgment just a little longer. Listen just a little longer. Observe A little longer if you do not speak the language, but hold off of that judgment. And and some of that is also quieting down your internal chatter about what you’re seeing. So, you know, in certain places, when I sit in a public space, whether it’s at townsquare or not, I, you know, I don’t necessarily like what I see as as maybe the way that I think women are viewed or tweeted or whatever it is, but just holding off of that often that judgment a little longer because curiosity connects it relax as if I don’t have to judge yet. It helps me explore it helps me question but hopefully mostly my own responses, my own thoughts, my own values and not to throw them out. I’m not willing to do that. But just question them as in you know, How How would they work if I would have been born here? And if I am part of this cultural history in this political system and this whatever system it might be right? So curiosity is such an awesome thing. And of course at times I find it hard to apply myself so I’ve had to put myself in the in between issues right.

Unknown Speaker 52:28
I think we all get to that point sometimes where it’s a little hard to push past some of those judgments are some things from our past. Yeah, speaking of that, like your hard talk business coaching, like how do you help like you help businesses and more executive level? Do you have Do you work with companies are a lot of international that have to deal with different cultures or you know, anything like that?

Unknown Speaker 52:58
Yeah, I never leave Tried to explore that consciously. I have worked with international companies and what they like is, so companies that have factories, plans and offices in most on most continents, what they of course like is that I can talk to and not necessarily advice around, but increase their awareness around cultural sensitivities and cultural differences that they may either not be aware of or are not comfortable discussing. So I think becoming more curious and open minded and adaptable starts with really being honest about your cultural and cognitive biases, and being willing to say them out loud in front of a trusted person. Which I would in the case of executive coaching, for example, I would be that person, of course. So taking away the self judgment around it and acknowledging that you have very strong thoughts and feelings and judgments about certain cultures and putting that out on the table and then starting to look at it, almost literally walking around the table and looking at these different thoughts and judgments and values and even sometimes come them nations from different perspectives, different lenses. I think that’s really important. So I do a lot of that. I have not attempted to find those cultural projects necessarily. But even organizations that don’t have plants on every continent, usually executives have to travel right. So it always comes up always people feel relatively comfortable discussing those those judgments and thoughts and fears and concerns with me. And, yeah, I think it’s awesome. And I always tell them, you know, sometimes people ascribe way too much to me. They’re like, okay, you speak this many languages you have been to this many countries because they’re always curious and they always ask, so I’ve learned to come up with numbers. But no, it doesn’t doesn’t mean that I am free of judgment. I never will be. And that’s okay. Right. I just hope I catch it early enough, in order to connect better to connect differently, to understand better, and to then either have better business in that country, as in better serving my clients. Or just being a better visitor to a region or a country or a culture because, you know, one thing I really always strive to be is the best possible Pfister and there is and I never will know what do I have succeeded. Completely even close to being the best possible visitor but at least that’s my striving that’s my mindset my attempt and I know I must fail many different times but I hope I radiate that

Carolien Moors 56:16
my striving

Mike Bruce 56:18
water What a cool the to be the best visitor in a place like that is I mean just just live your life that way let alone live your travels that way right? Oh, man, I I am absolutely loving your viewpoint on things your your ability to explain mindset the way that you do. And oddly enough, I just love the way you build and structure a sentence. I don’t know why I really am enjoying this conversation today.

Unknown Speaker 56:47
Oh, thank you. Thank you Well, and English is not my first language. So sometimes I start a sentence and I realized that it’s more that that structure and sometimes I’m translating in my head or or so I’m glad that it’s clear enough for you guys. Of course it is. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 57:05
Oh, that you know, and just, I knew it would be after being in your class I’m like, right, you know, and I could have definitely I knew I could learn a lot more from you and it’s I just by having this conversation I learned even more and I’m like excited like, I wish I was getting on a plane tomorrow.

Amy Nubson 57:29
Actually, I’m currently in Fargo.

Mike Bruce 57:33
So on on Sunday, I’m practically going to another country. I’m going to Florida where no one no one is a normal person, I’m sorry, Floridians. Amy Amy, do we have one more question? Um, you

Amy Nubson 57:52
know, like, the big quite like the question we have left is

Mike Bruce 57:55
this might be harder than Who is your favorite child which we know everybody has a favorite

Carolien Moors 58:01
Don’t get me started.

Amy Nubson 58:06
Don’t always admit it. But where is your favorite place to visit? And why?

Carolien Moors 58:12
Oh, that’s such a wonderful question. So if our son and daughters would be here, they would be laughing loudly now because it would always frustrate them if they were asking me What’s your favorite color? Mom? What’s your favorite dish? Mom? I would never get a straight answer.

get the heck out of them. I would say well depends. So for business, I like this color. But for pleasure. I like that. When I’m at home, I like this dish, but when I’m not at home, you get the point. So I don’t have one favorite place but I do have an answer for you that may satisfy you as well as our children. My favorite place is the one that is most different from anything I have already visited. So a new Yes, somewhere new somewhere in New Yes, I love that so much. But of course, I also have favorite pockets in the world. So Southern Europe is one of my favorite pockets like France, Italy and Spain. Asia, the whole region where I am now because Asia of course, is a big, big continent. I love that. We have only explored two countries and mostly one on the African continent. So that intrigues me the Middle East and tweets me would be my favorite place, but that would be a weird answer, because I haven’t been yet but if you ask me, what’s your favorite place to go right now? Yeah. would be somewhere in the Middle East. Oh, that’s cool.

Mike Bruce 59:45
Yeah. So it’s always the next place is your favorite place?

Carolien Moors 59:49
Yes. Yeah, like

Unknown Speaker 59:50
that. Yeah, you’re always you’re always going to the your next favorite place that is so great. And it’s all a excitement of again, the unknown.

Carolien Moors 1:00:00
Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Mike Bruce 1:00:02
So let’s figure out how to get some clients in the Middle East so that you have more reason to go.

Carolien Moors 1:00:08
You’re gonna figure that out from Yeah.

Mike Bruce 1:00:10
so generous. Well, so how about this? Where can everybody find you in case there’s somebody that’s that’s going to be listening that does want to reach out for for business coaching for executive coaching. We’re, is there any other? Do you stick mainly to business and executive and corporate coaching? Or is there other styles that you do?

Unknown Speaker 1:00:29
Oh, no other styles. Every level I’ve worked with 24 seven operators worked in many different industries. So yeah, if people want to find me, first try and spell my first name correctly, but if that turns out to be hard, the real the real easy way without joking is hard to talk business coaching, they will find my website, which also contains some video and audio material So that’s the way to find me. I always want to or I also want to use this these last few seconds Mike and Amy to thank you for an awesome conversation you yourself are very experienced have seem to have an awesome mindset for traveling but not just traveling but but for life in general. So I feel really enriched by this conversation and want to thank you for being interested in my thoughts and for sharing your so little I may want to have a follow up conversation with both of you so that I get to ask more questions.

Mike Bruce 1:01:38
We are both we are both very long winded so

Carolien Moors 1:01:43
I can make time.

Mike Bruce 1:01:45
We are we are so grateful for this and everybody reach out if you if you have any questions on this episode, we will have everything in links in the description below, below wherever you download this from and if you need to find me You can find me at life. starts with food and that is on Instagram, Facebook and my website is also life starts with food calm. And Amy, where can they find you?

Amy Nubson 1:02:06
So you can find me on new fire marketing.com and again, we’ll put those links from this on this page or on our website. travel with Mike and Amy. That will be where our blog and podcast will live.

Mike Bruce 1:02:21
Yep. And and everybody, thank you for listening. This is getting there with Mike and Amy and Caroline. Thank you so much again.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai